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MacNeil, Kathleen (audio interview #1 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the first of three long interviews with Kathleen MacNeil conducted at the kitchen table in her small, one-bedroom efficiency unit in a senior housing project. MacNeil was a great performer, frequently gesturing, posing and pantomiming her responses, and laughing often. She was highly articulate, self-directed and expansive in her interviews, requiring little prompting from the interviewer. 9/8/1980
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- SUBJECT BIO - Kathleen MacNeil came to California to escape her alcoholic husband in 1941, and almost immediately got a job at Lockheed Aircraft. The last of seventh children, MacNeil began working after one year of high school, first as a clerical worker and then in a dress factory in Boston. She then began to waitress, first in Groton, Connecticut and then in Florida, until she married. She remained a full-time homemaker, taking care of her four children, until she went back to work in 1940. Although her defense job paid more than her various pink collar jobs, it was still very difficult to support her and her four children. Feeling that there was not much promise for the future in the aircraft industry, after the layoffs, MacNeil went to work first at an insurance company and then entered clerical work in Civil Service. She held various jobs in city and county agencies until her retirement in 1971. MacNeil contacted the Rosie the Riveter project at her daughter's urging. Three long interviews were conducted with her, seated around the kitchen table in her small, one-bedroom efficiency unit in a senior housing project. The major piece of furniture in the small living room was a spinet piano, with a metronome sitting atop it. Records and books on music all testify to her interest. MacNeil projected vitality and confidence, and was a great performer, frequently gesturing, posing and pantomiming her responses. She was highly articulate, self-directed and expansive in her interviews, requiring little prompting from the interviewer. Although she enjoyed the interview process, she became saddened at times, like when she talked about her deceased brother or her son's death. TOPICS - family background; neighborhood in south Boston; childhood; play activities; socioeconomic status; housing and living arrangements; family life; interests and pastimes; siblings; and gender expectations;mother; household rules; dating; clothing; schooling; teachers; family life; relatives; living with grandmother in the country; career expectations; interest in dancing; literary influences; and religion;schooling; father's death; mother's work outside the home; MacNeil's job responsibilities as a dress factory clerk; wages and hours; menstruation; social activities; dating; resort work; husband; and marriage;pregnancy and childbirth; Children's Bureau prenatal and childcare publications; living arrangements; relationship with mother-in-law; husband's family history; household responsibilities; marital relationship; dommarital relationship; managing household responsibilities during marriage; application process at Lockheed; housing and living arrangements; children and childcare; union; wages; work clothing; first day in the pla
- *** File: rrrkmacneil1.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-3:28)... MacNeil's maternal grandparents met and married in Boston while her grandfather was working there as a painter. When he finished his job, they went to Dublin, Ireland where he was born and raised. Her grandmother gave birth to three children in Ireland, including MacNeil's mother. When MacNeil's grandfather died of typhoid fever, her grandmother returned to Boston, leaving the children behind with their grandmother. When she was five, McNeil's mother went from Ireland to Boston with her fifteen-year-old uncle. MacNeil does not know how her grandmother supported her children after her husband died. She did remarry and when MacNeil stayed with her when she was a child, her grandmother worked as a housekeeper for a farmer. (3:28-7:50)... MacNeil's parents were raised in Boston. They both received a grammar school education and began working in their early teens. They met while working at a millinery factory and married when they were each around eighteen years old. MacNeil's mother gave birth to her first child soon after she married. Ultimately, she delivered nine children, two of whom died in infancy. MacNeil was born in 1904 and was the sixth child in her family. They were raised Catholics, though she no longer practices religion. Her father supported the family working as a roofer, but they always struggled during the winter months. (7:50-10:57)... Her family lived in a predominantly Irish neighborhood in south Boston. There were other ethnic neighborhoods in the area - of Italian, Polish, and Lithuanian families. She "grew up on the streets" because children did not have playgrounds in which to play. Talking about the childhood games she enjoyed, she notes that boys and girls played together. When they reached puberty, however, their activities were usually segregated. When she was a young girl she had no idea that her family was poor. Looking back, she realizes that her father probably struggled to support their large family. (10:57-13:59)... MacNeil describes the home she lived in with her family. There were eight children and two adults living in the house and occasionally, her grandmother lived with them as well. She shared her bedroom and her bed with two siblings. Everyone in the house had to double up, but her home never felt crowded. (13:59-14:43)... Her mother made all of their clothes, so they never lacked clothing. However, MacNeil remembers wearing shoes with holes in them. They lined the shoes with newspapers to cover the holes. (14:43-17:12)... When the weather was bad, her father did not work. She liked it when he stayed home because he was a lot fun. Once in a while, her parents went to Broadway shows, after which her father performed all of the songs and dances for the children. Her mother was too busy managing her home to play with her children. Both of MacNeil's parents read to them on a daily basis. They spent a lot of time at the beach and the entire family usually went out for a leisurely walk on Sunday afternoons. (17:12-22:55)... MacNeil and her siblings came home for lunch while they were in grade school. She describes their lunch hour like "being at the zoo" because of the laughter and the games they played at the table. At dinnertime, her family ate in shifts because their table was not large enough to accommodate everyone. Her mother never had time to sit down during dinner. Her parents talked a lot and never excluded their children from participating in those conversations. After dinner, the children played outside if the weather was warm. During the winter months, they spent their evenings doing homework and/or reading. MacNeil discusses the types of books she read when she was a young girl. (22:55-25:30)... MacNeil grew up in a musical environment. Her mother played the piano and also enjoyed listening to classical music on their phonograph. Her parents could not afford to send her to piano lessons when she was a child. She began pursuing her musical interests much later in life and took piano lessons at Pasadena City College. (25:30-29:27)... Talking about a brother who died at the age of thirty-nine, MacNeil became very emotional. She was always closer to her brothers than her older sister, who MacNeil described as "prissy and proper." MacNeil spent most the time reading and playing with her brothers. Her mother never restricted her from physical activities because she was a girl. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil2.mp3 (0:00-2:31)... MacNeil discusses her mother's household rules. Overall, her mother was very flexible and placed very few restrictions on her children. They were expected to be home for meals and to wash up before they ate. Her mother established a curfew for MacNeil when she started dating. After a boy walked her home they usually sat on the front steps and talked. Her mother watched them from the second floor window and signaled MacNeil when it was time for her to say goodnight. (2:31-3:26)... She does not remember having any household chores when she lived with her parents. Her mother did everything around the house and MacNeil does not believe that her siblings were required to do any chores either. (3:26-3:59)... She always wore dresses to school and when she played outside. She had a separate outfit for school and when she got home she changed into her play outfit. (3:59-10:15)... She jokingly refers to herself as a grasshopper because all she liked to do was eat, read, sing, and dance when she was a young girl. She also enjoyed school and even recalls her first day in kindergarten. Her favorite subjects in school were history and algebra. She discusses some of the teachers who influenced her studies. Although her parents made sure she did her homework and were interested in her progress, they were not involved in her school activities the way parents are today. (10:15-12:31)... She was somewhat of a loner in school. She felt uncomfortable around girls and bashful around boys, so she did not make too many friends at school. Outside of school, however, she had a lot of friends from the neighborhood. Even though she mainly played with her brothers, she did not consider herself a tomboy. While some girls were fearless and liked to climb trees, MacNeil was afraid to do those types of activities. (12:31-15:04)... MacNeil was not close with her parent's siblings. Occasionally, they came for long visits when they were in between jobs. Her maternal grandmother lived with them at different times during MacNeil's childhood. After her mother's sister died, her daughter moved in with the MacNeil family. Her mother's brother was a photographer and whenever he came for visits he entertained them by playing the violin. MacNeil knew very little about her father's side of the family. Her grandparents died before she was born, but she was told that her grandfather was a Civil War veteran. (15:04-19:39)... When MacNeil was three years old, just after her four-year-old sister died, her mother sent her to live with her grandmother in Orange, Massachusetts, where MacNeil's grandmother lived and worked on a farm as a housekeeper. Living with her grandmother was another example of having a "silver spoon in my mouth" because she did not have to do any work. She spent her time playing alone and watching the farmer do his farming tasks. She returned to Boston when she was ready to start school. A few years ago, MacNeil visited Orange and found an apartment complex where the farm once stood. (19:39-22:48)... When she was young, her career aspirations were to become a dancer. She took dance lessons after school and performed in church plays and musicals and at social club events. She never thought about college or pursuing a professional career because that "seemed too far above me." (22:48-27:29)... MacNeil considered herself a devout Catholic when she was young girl, but her beliefs began to change during her teenage years when she began reading more scientifically based books written by people such as Albert Einstein and Thomas (sic) Huxley. She began going to catechism when she was in first grade and received her first communion and confirmation by the time she was seven. When catechism ended, she began taking bible history courses at church. She cannot recall her siblings being as devoted as she was to Catholicism. Her mother attended church regularly, but her father would occasionally be too hung over to go to church on Sunday mornings. (27:29-28:35)... MacNeil went to high school for only one year. She enjoyed her courses, but was a loner and made very few friends while in school. The tape ends just as she begins discussing high school. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil3.mp3 (0:00-1:09)... She continues to discuss the year she spent in high school. She did not think about her future. The idea that women "get married and have children" was always in the back of her mind because that was expected. (1:09-3:59)... MacNeil quit high school shortly after her father died in 1918. Her mother went to work at a drug store to help support herself and the three remaining children who still lived at home. MacNeil's brother got a job at a piano store and she went to work as a clerk at a dress factory. While there she met a lot of friends and frequently went to dances, describing it as her "gay" or "up" period. (3:59-6:08)... She started menstruating when she was twelve years old. Her mother had not prepared her for menses. The day she started her period, she calmly went home and told her mother who said, "That's alright. That will happen to you every month." MacNeil was not told anything else about menstruation and figured that it probably happened to boys too. Her mother provided her with some rags to use for protection. MacNeil never spoke to her sister about menstruation, or anything else for that matter, because they just could not relate to one another. (6:08-9:28)... She was not involved in any extracurricular activities in high school. She occasionally went to high school football games, but she was never interested in sports. She did not like gym class, explaining that her favorite physical activity was dancing. Her mother forbade her from going to dances before a certain age. MacNeill got out of the house on the ruse that she was going ice skating when she really planned to go to a dance. By the time she was sixteen, she had talked her mother into lifting the age restriction with the caveat that her brother pick her up from the dances. (9:28-17:19)... MacNeil describes her job responsibilities when she worked as a clerk at a dress factory. She earned approximately $12 a week and worked five days a week and half a day on Saturday. She was friendly with her co-workers, but rarely socialized with them outside of work. During this period, MacNeil's social life revolved around dancing. She digresses regarding the times she went to theater performances. (17:19-20:24)... MacNeil never formally dated boys when she was a teenager. She met boys at dances, but did not socialize with them outside of that environment. She talks about her crush on a neighborhood boy. Her early "romances" did not amount to much. (20:24-23:32)... MacNeil learned about job opportunities at resort properties through a close friend. In 1926, she applied for a job and was hired to work in the dining room of the Biltmore Hotel in New London, Connecticut. Most of the people she worked with were college students pursuing professional degrees. She met her future husband at the Biltmore. He was employed in the laundry facility at the resort. At the end of the summer, they accepted resort positions in Clearwater, Florida and that is where they were married in 1927. (23:32-29:02)... MacNeil talks about her marriage to her first husband, stating that their behavior was "idiotic." She was so spoiled her entire life that she expected him to take care of her and it never occurred to her to find out how he planned to support her. They stayed in Florida until they ran out of money. At that time, she returned to Boston and he went to his hometown of Norwich, Connecticut. She eventually moved to Norwich and they lived with his mother. He went to work at a textile mill and she stayed home. They returned to Boston a few months later, at which time he got a job as a kitchen steward at the Boston City Club and she went to work at a candy factory. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil4.mp3 (0:00-4:57)... MacNeil and her husband did not have immediate plans to have children; however, they did not practice birth control; she didn't know about it. By the time they moved back to Connecticut in 1928 she was pregnant; she gave birth to her daughter, Grace, in 1929. When she found out that she was pregnant, she went to the library and checked out whatever she could on pregnancy and childcare so that she could educate herself. She also wrote to the Children's Bureau and they sent her several books on prenatal and infant care. She was so relieved when she read these books because "I finally learned what it's [menstruation] all about." She talks about the guidance that was provided in the Children's Bureau publications. (4:57-7:24)... MacNeil's husband had four younger brothers and a twin brother and sister. Their father died around the same time as MacNeil's, leaving his mother to support the family. When he died, the twin babies were eighteen months old and the baby girl died a few days later. As the boys got old enough, they went to work in the textile mills to help support the family. Her mother-in-law also worked in a textile mill. MacNeil got along with her mother-in-law when they lived together. She describes her mother-in-law as being "pushy" towards MacNeil because she finally got the daughter she always wanted. MacNeil was grateful to her mother-in-law because she learned a lot from her. Her mother-in-law worked as a school teacher before she married. (7:24-8:41)... Her husband made very little money working at the textile mill. She convinced him to take a civil service examination for a mail carrier position that she was advertised in the newspaper. She obtained a sample test and quizzed him every night before he took the examination. He received a top score and was hired by the postal service immediately. Initially, he worked as a substitute carrier. (8:41-9:56)... She delivered her daughter in the hospital. A doctor was supposed to attend her birth did not make it to the hospital on time. She was prepared for childbirth as a result of the books she read during her pregnancy. She stayed in the hospital for three weeks because she contracted a cold and the doctor felt that she should receive additional medical care. She attempted to breast feed her daughter, but was unsuccessful. (9:56-10:49)... MacNeil did not have any household responsibilities when she lived with her mother-in-law. She did things around the house when she could, but she never cooked for the family. As soon as her husband was hired in the civil service, they moved out on their own. (10:49-16:17)... After she married, she gave up dancing and her life revolved around her home and her children. She gave birth to a son in 1930 and remained home, "chained to the kitchen sink." She did not make any friends while living in Connecticut and the only social life she had was occasionally going to the movies with her husband. They liked to listen to music on the radio and read books. They were too poor to have a social life, but she read and listened to music on the radio. (16:17-17:23)... MacNeil and her husband did not talk about or plan to have more children. She had two more children in 1934 and in 1938, respectively. (She shows a photograph of her four children: Kenneth, Grace, Kathleen, and Bill.) (17:23-25:49)... By the time she had her fourth child, her husband was drinking heavily and it was causing problems in their marriage. When he told her that he was going to leave, she got three jobs to support her family. Her mother-in-law moved in with her in order to take care of the children while MacNeil was at work. Once her husband realized she could make it on her own, he quit his job at the post office and moved to Los Angeles. MacNeil's sister-in-law convinced him to send half of his postal pension to MacNeil. Anticipating that he would return to Connecticut, when she received the money, she packed up her kids and took a bus to California. She ran out of money in Albuquerque and had to wire her sister for more. She arrived in Los Angeles in February 1942 with only .39 cents to her name. She moved in with her sister-in-law and worked at a laundry facility two days before she applied and was hired at Lockheed. (25:49-27:11)... MacNeil discusses how her immediate family ended up in California. On several occasions, her sister suggested that she move to California so that they could share a place together. MacNeil felt that the timing was right when her husband decided he was coming back to Connecticut. She wanted to be as far away from him as possible. End of tape. *** File: rrrkmacneil5.mp3 (0:10-1:45)... MacNeil made all of the financial, household, and childcare decisions in her marriage. She was prepared for the responsibility of raising her children alone because she had this responsibility all along. The only difference was that she had to go back to work to support her family. (1:45-4:02)... The application process at Lockheed lasted for three days. The employment office was crowded with people waiting in lines to either fill out an application or complete another phase of the hiring process. On the second day, MacNeil took an aptitude test that revealed she was not efficient with tools, so they decided to hire her as a riveter. She had no idea what to expect when she got to Lockheed. Her sister-in-law was already employed at the plant and told her that the company was hiring anyone who came in off the street. MacNeil was encouraged by this and went in thinking, "I'm going to get a job and with a job comes a paycheck and that's essential." (4:02-5:40)... After MacNeil was hired at Lockheed, she and her four children moved into a one-bedroom apartment. Aware of the difficulty of finding housing with four children, she initially told the landlady that she only had two children. Her daughter lived with her sister-in-law for a few days and MacNeil snuck her third child into the apartment. Once they got settled, her daughter moved into the apartment. (5:40-7:19)... For the first couple of weeks in California, MacNeil and her sister-in-law managed to watch each other's kids because they worked different shifts at Lockheed. MacNeil was hired to work the graveyard shift and by the time she left for work her children were asleep and she was home in the morning to see them off to school. Her four-year-old started was allowed to go to kindergarten and his school had extended daycare. Her older children "grew up on the playground" that was located around the corner from their apartment complex. (7:19-9:17)... She continues to describe the application process at Lockheed. She applied at the Burbank plant located on the corner of Empire Boulevard. She could not recall what types of questions she was asked on the aptitude test, but believes the entire test was bogus because the plant wanted riveters regardless of their mechanical abilities. She states that the entire process was "as bad or worse as Washington, DC [bureaucracy]." (9:17-11:04)... MacNeil never thought about how her work at Lockheed would change her life. Her only concern was making money so that she could support her family. Every time she was paid she took out enough to cover her transportation costs to and from the plant. Whatever was left over went towards paying for her household expenses. She resented people in the plant who had their entire families working there because they were able to enjoy their wages while she was making barely enough to feed her family. (11:04-12:58)... She did not make any special preparations before she went to work at the plant. She purchased a pair of women's slacks at the Good Will for fifty cents, which was the only pair she owned for a while. She had previously worn pants on occasion when she was in high school and while she was married. (12:58-13:52)... MacNeil started working at Lockheed the day after she finished the three-day application/hiring process. Although she could not recall her starting wage, she believes she made about $34 a week. She joined the union after she was hired because her father had always belonged to a union and instilled those values in his children. (13:52-15:47)... When MacNeil walked into the plant she was a little bewildered by what she saw. Production was being completed on B-17s and she thought that everything looked and seemed so confusing. She could not remember if she received on-the-job training or if she was trained in a separate facility. Someone instructed on how to use a rivet gun and she thinks she learned quickly and did a good job because she periodically received a .05 cent raise. (15:47-17:32)... MacNeil rode the bus to Lockheed, catching it at a station on Avenue 26 just south of Highland Park. She walked the several miles from to the bus stop alone at night and was never afraid that she would be harassed by anyone. (17:32-19:03)... She describes the childcare arrangements she made during her first week at Lockheed. Her children started going to school the day after they arrived in California. End of tape.
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